tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36486098.post202732655850906093..comments2023-10-04T10:31:31.191+01:00Comments on Lacrimarum Valle: The CMF: Contracepting ChristiansUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36486098.post-47941686096578073872006-12-14T00:30:00.000+00:002006-12-14T00:30:00.000+00:00Thank you again Antonia. I reiterate that NFP is m...Thank you again Antonia. I reiterate that NFP is morally entirely different from contraception: The latter being intrinsically evil. I was debating what you call "the use of NFP in the correct circumstances". It is presumptive of me to dismiss Father's comment as "absolutely ridiculous" but you might say it is equally presumptive of the Holy Father to judge whether something as novel as NFP is effective at deepening the marital relationship. I expect he was well informed by the NFP promoters. I am merely making a case for traditional Catholic practice rather than being swept away with the prevalent idea that NFP is a 'Catholic form of contraception' which I respect, Antonia, you agree is inappropriate. This discussion has probably run its course - I don't want to appear to be ultimately condemning NFP because I acknowledge it is a licit practice.DrMatthewDoylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06631492275281667768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36486098.post-16005746524642053222006-12-13T23:38:00.000+00:002006-12-13T23:38:00.000+00:00Matt, I agree with you, a contraceptive use of NFP...Matt, I agree with you, a contraceptive use of NFP DOES undermine the Church's stance against contraception.<br /><br /><br />Please correct me if I am wrong, but in your post & comments you seem to be suggesting:<br /><br />a- that *all* use of NFP is due to a contraceptive mentality on behalf of the couple, and<br /><br />b- That in order to be in harmony with God's will a couple must only<br />accept children 'as God sends them'(i.e. no NFP useage whatsoever).<br /><br /><br />It is these opinions that I am taking objection to, because they do not accuratly reflect what the Church teaches.<br /><br /><br />Perhaps you need to refresh your understanding on the moral difference between NFP and contraception, because you continually seem to be<br />suggesting, very much contrary to the Church's position, that they are morally on par with each other.<br /><br /><br />The Church teaches that NFP *can* be used with a generous open-to-life mentality.<br /><br />It is not our place to decide which couple is interpreting God's will correctly, who is really being generous enough, or whose reason for abstaining from welcoming children is good enough - or Godly enough. We can't assume to know what is within the hearts of others or what couple's<br />motivations are for abstaining. That is for each couple to prayerfully discern with God.<br /><br /><br />The bottom line is that the Church DOES allow couples to use NFP for just reasons.<br /><br /><br />If someone doesn't agree with the Church on this....well, that is their own issue.<br /><br />But it is not justifiable to apply one's own moral standards to other<br />couples who are behaving fully in accordance with the Church's teaching simply because one don't see that teaching as being wholesome enough.<br /><br /><br /><br />Secondly, in defense of "Father" above, I would like to quote<br />John Paul II from Familiaris Consortio:<br /><br />In this document not only does JP2 reaffirm the licitness of "recourse to periods of infertility" but he praises the practice as likely to lead to<br />"dialogue, reciprocal respect, shared responsibility and self-control".<br /><br />He continues "In this context the couple comes to experience how conjugal communion is enriched with those values of tenderness and affection which constitue the inner soul of human sexuality, in its physical dimension also."<br /><br /><br />It is well known that the practice of NFP in itself does much to strengthen and closen the relationship of the couple, thanks to its constant demand for open honest communication, self-control, mutual physical respect,<br />continuous consideration of God's will etc.<br /><br />Perhaps you haven't read much NFP literature, but NFP's role in<br />strengthening marriage is a theme which is well-known and described at length (even in secular NFP literature).<br /><br />Familiaris Consortio quoted above is just one place, of many, where JP2 says that NFP strengthens a couple's relationship, and he stands alongside a vast number of NFP-users whose experience says the same.<br /><br />I am obviously not saying that NFP is a necessaity for healthy marriage, but I don't believe it is justifiable to say that it is 'ridiculous' to suggest that NFP promotes certain relationship characteristics that are beneficial in a marriage.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />---<br /><br />FINALLY: I am not saying that every couple has to use NFP and I am certainly not advocating the use of NFP as 'Catholic birth-control'. <br /><br />Children are the ultimate crowning glory of a marital relationship, and as such are a beautiful gift that should be welcomed generously and abundantly.<br />Personally, it makes me very happy when I see Catholic couples who have been having a child every 2 years for the last 20 years of the marriage.<br /><br />However,I am want to defend the Church's teaching on this matter, and re-iterate what she actually says on this subject, because I find it very dishonest & unfair when people suggest that every use of NFP is contrary to "God's will".<br /><br />The only global articulation we have of "God's will" is the Church's teaching (not private opinion), and the Church is at ease with the use of NFP in the correct circumstances and does not believe that its use is indicative of a less trusting or less generous couple.<br /><br /><br /><br />~~<br /><br />I have found this an interesting and stimulating discussion, thanks for making me think!!<br /><br />God Bless<br /><br />-x-antonia2https://www.blogger.com/profile/00642364170715256343noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36486098.post-71986765869449791412006-12-13T03:31:00.000+00:002006-12-13T03:31:00.000+00:00Matt, thank you for sharing your intimate and movi...Matt, thank you for sharing your intimate and moving experience and struggle with us. As one who often defends Humanae Vitae, hearing the perspective of people who actually practice the teaching of the Church is a great boost. <br /><br />The issue of contraception has convinced many people of the truth of the Catholic Church. This seemingly recalcitrant position of the Church which holds on to what was formerly a universal Christian belief, when almost every other denomination has abandoned it makes people give the Church a second look when they might otherwise not do so. An example of this is Scott Hahn’s wife, Kimberly. Even Protestant theologians like Albert Mohler, President of the Southern Baptist Seminary, are also relooking the issue of contraception as they are beginning to see the dangers that the contraceptive mentality poses to the defence of human life. Contraception encourages sexual promiscuity by divorcing the act of marriage from its consequence and undermines the very foundation of morality and civilization.<br /><br />Very often the debate for me is something abstract and theoretical. To see it lived out in practice gives me more courage to proclaim it.<br /><br />Thank you for your witness and may God continue to bless you abundantly.Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09356738924839809045noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36486098.post-41667381251729095712006-12-12T22:22:00.000+00:002006-12-12T22:22:00.000+00:00Thank you for your comments. Antonia, you are obvi...Thank you for your comments. Antonia, you are obviously well versed on the subject. You're right, I should concentrate on opposing the contraceptive culture altogether. However, I do feel that a contraceptive use of NFP undermines the Catholic argument against contraception. Either we think the procreative act should be orientated towards children, or not. There is little middle ground.<br /><br />Father: You have clearly been fed the spiel about NFP. Its ridiculous to assume that this practice is beneficial for marriage. Simply look at what dadwithnoisykids has just said - that is beautiful. I strongly object to an argument which encourages all Catholic couples to use NFP arbitrarily. It is an allowance the church has made towards the predominant culture of both contraception and assisted fertility. It should not be taken as the given Catholic way. "Because of your hardness of heart" I think Jesus would say...DrMatthewDoylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06631492275281667768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36486098.post-23779538872419926602006-12-12T06:18:00.000+00:002006-12-12T06:18:00.000+00:00My wife reminded me of a quote(which I paraphrase)...My wife reminded me of a quote(which I paraphrase) from Fr. John Hardon, S.J. about NFP: you can't space children if you have never had any children.dadwithnoisykidshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07524886860399817926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36486098.post-22468870337202152722006-12-12T06:14:00.000+00:002006-12-12T06:14:00.000+00:00Matt: We let God decide for us from the beginning...Matt: We let God decide for us from the beginning. We got married with 2 years to go in medical school.<br /><br />I can't tell you how much we have been blessed by making this decision. God truly listened to us, and He has helped us meet our temporal needs as we went through medical school, internship, residency, fellowship, military service, and now private practice.<br /><br />How much has He blessed us? We have twelve children: 8 sons and 4 daughters. We are praying that God will bless us with more children whom we can raise up for Him. At our ages(me - 42, my wife - 38) we realize that time is passing, and that we will not have that many more years to have children.<br /><br />God will bless you tremendously for your change of heart.dadwithnoisykidshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07524886860399817926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36486098.post-83569714537321650742006-12-11T11:02:00.000+00:002006-12-11T11:02:00.000+00:00Surely too NFP is about co-operating with God's cr...Surely too NFP is about co-operating with God's creative purpose and involves for success a far more intimate understanding between the married couple, both physiologically and spiritually, than artificial methods of contraception. NFP also offers ways to promote fertility that are more successful than the morally horrendous means of IVF. So yes, the Church and her ministers must not promote NFP with a contraceptive mentality, but yes, NFP is potentially a gift of God to build stronger marriages and families.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36486098.post-35096401919615744882006-12-10T12:44:00.000+00:002006-12-10T12:44:00.000+00:00Hi!
No I am not at all offended. I think your poi...Hi!<br /><br />No I am not at all offended. I think your point of view is totally understandable in the light of your reversion, and your wife's conversion to the faith.<br /><br />Your own experience of yearning for children when none came, and your belief that God was yearing for your marriage to bear fruit, is YOUR own experience, and you should not extrapolate it to others.<br /><br />What the Lord may want for one couple, He may not want from a couple who, superficially, may appear to be in a similar position.<br /><br /><br />The Magestirium of the Church has never required that a 'serious' or 'grave' reason be required for the use of NFP. <br />Rather the Church requires that the reason for its use be 'just'.<br /><br />CCC no. 2368 we see the word 'just' being used.<br /><br />Humanae Vitae section 16<br />"If then, there are any just motives to space births...the church teaches it is licit ...(to use NFP)"<br /><br />(this is too frequently translated erroneously as 'serious motives', but if you look at the actual encyclical it uses the Latin word 'iustae', which is actually the word for just, and not serious.)<br /><br />Furthermore, on November 26th 1951 Pius XII spoke to the 'Association of Large Families' and said:<br /><br />"We affirm the legitimacy and at the same time the limits - truly very wide - of that controlling of births which, unlike the so-called 'birth control', is compatible with God's law."<br /><br />Note the: 'truly very wide" limits of using NFP.<br /><br />Also, in his "Allocution to Midwives" of October 29th 1951 Pius XII states:<br /><br />"Serious reasons, such as those which not rarely arise from medical, eugenic, economic and social so-called 'indications' may exempt husband and wife from the obligatory postivite debt [i.e. debt to society of having children] for a long period or even for the entire period of matrimonial life".<br /><br />I have never read or heard a Pontiff suggest that NFP should be restricted to the narrowest of circumstances.<br /><br /><br />Furthermore, I would like to add that I believe it to be VERY difficult to use NFP with a contraceptive mentality.<br />It is probably possible in theory, but by its very essence, NFP requires couples to be open to life, and to reconsider their decision to delay children each and every single month.<br /><br />Also, yes, the remote ends of NFP & contraception may be the same (i.e. to delay children), but the immediate ends are extremly different, and this is highly significant.<br /><br />Wanting to earn money for one's family is the same remote end, whether you go out and get a job, or rob a bank.<br /><br /><br />The Church has given her massive seal of approval to the use of NFP in just circumstances and it is up to each individual couple to prayerfully discern themselves what God desires of them in this present time.<br />They must be generous and open to life, yes of course, but that doesn't not automatically equate with conceiving every time they can.<br /><br />The Church has taught that the difference between NFP used in just circumstances and contraception used in equally just circumstances are vast to the extent that the former is morally acceptable, and may even be necessary, whereas the latter is not justifiable.<br /><br />Perhaps instead of worrying so much about whether your fellow 1% of the Catholic population who uses NFP is using it with the correct spirit (which is ultimately a matter between themselves and the Lord), you could focus your efforts on the 99% of Catholics not using it, because they are definitly doing something wrong!!<br /><br />God Bless!<br /><br />antonia<br />-x-antoniahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15599330511715022446noreply@blogger.com